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TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Goahead - 22/11/2007
Hi
Sorry.. for my non French
I have installed a new module into my board hager TS223.
First time i connected the bus, everything went ok.
Next day went i powered up the bus my powersource went down telling me
that there was a short circuit in bus.
I went to all modules, and it was the new TS223 that i have connected
day before without any problem.
Now it makes a short circuit if i connect the bus to it
Have to check if 24 months warranty experied or not, but i would also
like to be pointed to something i can make to repair this if no
warranty available!
Is it comun a EIB module die in short-cutting the bus? New modules to?
I really want to open it up to check whats wrong..but i need
directions first..if anyone have tryied it before!
regards
Goahead
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Marc Assin - 23/11/2007
On 22 nov, 19:43, Goahead <carlos-m-mon...@ptinovacao.pt> wrote:
Hi Goahead,
Nice to have you back :-)
> Now it makes a short circuit if i connect the bus to it
There is very little I can do for you, but I would suggest a very
close inspection of the bus connectors. Perso, I would replace them
without thinking, you never know (given the costs of the bus connector
vs the price of the module)
> i would also like to be pointed to something i can make to repair this
I fear the worst..... besides returning the device to Hager for
repair ...
> Is it comun a EIB module die in short-cutting the bus?
No, absolutely not. Perso, I've never read about it. Perso, I don't
like Hager very much due to their poor applications, but the quality
of hardware is very good.
> I really want to open it up to check whats wrong
Besides an obvious mechanical problem, torn pin, piece of wire, small
pice of metal around the bus contacts, inside the module, there is
little hope.
Too bad, I know
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Emanuele Palumbo - 23/11/2007
Indeed to change connector is deloin the solution the best.
-----Message d'origine-----
De : domotique-EIB@googlegroups.com [mailto:domotique-EIB@googlegroups.com]
De la part de Marc Assin
Envoyé : vendredi 23 novembre 2007 13:37
À : domotique-EIB
Objet : Re: TS 223 Never used..and already dead!
On 22 nov, 19:43, Goahead <carlos-m-mon...@ptinovacao.pt> wrote:
Hi Goahead,
Nice to have you back :-)
> Now it makes a short circuit if i connect the bus to it
There is very little I can do for you, but I would suggest a very
close inspection of the bus connectors. Perso, I would replace them
without thinking, you never know (given the costs of the bus connector
vs the price of the module)
> i would also like to be pointed to something i can make to repair this
I fear the worst..... besides returning the device to Hager for
repair ...
> Is it comun a EIB module die in short-cutting the bus?
No, absolutely not. Perso, I've never read about it. Perso, I don't
like Hager very much due to their poor applications, but the quality
of hardware is very good.
> I really want to open it up to check whats wrong
Besides an obvious mechanical problem, torn pin, piece of wire, small
pice of metal around the bus contacts, inside the module, there is
little hope.
Too bad, I know
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Goahead - 23/11/2007
Hi
Ok ill try that again..but its not a connector problem, since in my
board i have several other eib modules
I already disconnect then all, and changed the connections (using the
connector from the other modules) letting only the ts223 in bus and it
still kills the line...
If someone can get me schematics from EIB modules i could check whats
wrong.
Maybe its just the BIM11* that is dead (i think i have the schematic
for that) or some relais etc etc went dead short-cutting the input.
I dont know if theres any protection, or any circuit before the 29V
arrives to BIM chip. (im always talking inside the module, cause bus
power supply is protected
)Did someone ever saw a module inside?
Schematics need...
please help
Goahead
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Marc Assin - 23/11/2007
On 23 nov, 16:27, Goahead <carlos-m-mon...@ptinovacao.pt> wrote:
> If someone can get me schematics from EIB modules i could check whats
> wrong.
> Maybe its just the BIM11* that is dead
Maybe, yes, but even if your diagnostic is right, how are you going to
fix it ?
I think those are SMD components, so not so easy to replace without
appropriate equipment. Anyway, if your warranty is already void, you
might try
> or some relais
No, I don't think so
> Did someone ever saw a module inside?
> Schematics need...
Let's hope an expert can help
PS: did you buy it on eBay ?
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Goahead - 26/11/2007
Hi
Yes i bougth it from ebay...
At the time i bought it, i didnt test it..so several months have past
and i can send it back now.
I know what you may think, but since it has cost 1/4 of normal price,
i still can buy 3 more on ebay before i begin to loose money
I also have a dimmer from jung.. dual dimmer ref:3602 that does not
lit the led in program mode. It does not short the bus but it does
nothing when i try to access it.
I have open it (maybe i can place pictures in forum..) , removed the
dimmer part, and when i connect bus i can ear a buzz noise that seems
to be the transformer (or filter) ,or a capacitor, in the input pcb
part. Didnt check if power gets into chip pins.
SMD parts are not a problem to me. I work everyday with BGAs, TQFP and
0402 resistors and capacitors.
I have the tools..but dont have much knolege where to start
from..thats why a schematic could help.
Till now...all my house works...but i have a dead TS223 and Jung 3602
that i want to get back to life..or at leas explore those to learn
more about EIB
More opinions would be great.
regards
Goahead
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - keldo - 28/11/2007
@Goahead
> Till now...all my house works...but i have a dead TS223 and Jung 3602
> that i want to get back to life..or at leas explore those to learn
> more about EIB
Hello Goahead.
A fault on the application board is normally not supposed to make any
short circuit on the BUS, so you'll need to have a look at the BCU
part of your module (or the part of the circuit that does the same job
as a BCU ...).
Will it be easy for you to trouble shoot your TS223 ?
It is probably linked to the age of the design of this EIB module.
I already opened a few EIB modules, there are 2 different worlds in
there ...
- The old world : a separate BCU/BIM (just like the one we put in the
wall boxes but without the frame and with a metallic shield), plugged
on the application board (the one with the relay or dimmer or ...)
with a 10 or 12 pins connector.
You gonna find this architecture in old "EP" actors for exemple (the
one you hide in the raised cieling).
Old DIN rail moutable modules do have the same logical architecture
but, physically, the BCU/BIM inside might have quite another format.
To help you troubleshoot the BCU/BIM, you can find the datasheet of
the BIM on http://www.opternus.de :
http://www.opternus.de/opternus-components/BIM_M111-115.html
Look for the pdf files on the right side.
If the BCU/BIM is too damaged to be repaired, it might be possible to
buy another one from the vendor (Hager, Jung, ...) or from the maker
(most probably Siemens), but it must be programmed with the right
Vendor ID and Product ID in flash memory to be recognised by the ETS
as a "Hager TS223" or "Jung xxx" (definitely needed if you buy it
directly from Siemens). This re-programming is normally possible with
the BCU-SDK (free software) but I never did it myself.
- The new world : everything soldered on the same PCB.
Here, there are, again, two different "sub-worlds".
a) There is a "classical" BCU chipset (a 68HC05 family member + a bus
transiever) but it is intégrated on the same PCB as the application
part. In this case, you will probably (as a trained electronician ...)
recognise the part of the PCB that holds the BCU chipset and, maybe,
it will be possible for you to troubleshoot the shortcircuit. A
damaged transiever or microcontroller can be replaced if your are able
to de-solder and re-solder SMD devices but, if you change the
microcontroller, you'll need to go thru the "ID's" re-programming
phase like for old world. Look at http://www.opternus.de for parts.
b) The bus interface and the EIB protocol are processed by specific
hardware parts chosen by the vendor ; most probably a TP-UART
(Siemens) chip for the bus interface, connected to any microcontroller
with a UART port, but it can also be a completely original design form
the vendor.
A damaged TP-UART chip can be replaced if your are able to de-solder
and re-solder SMD devices (SOIC-20). You can buy a TP-UART and find
the datasheet on the http://www.opternus.de website, there are also some
other intersting pdf files and information avaliable there.
Note that for the "old world" and the "new world a)" cases, you can
also "cannibalize" the parts from any normal BCU1 or BCU2 as long as
the part numbers and the EIB software revision number( = "mask
version") are exactly the same as the ones used into the part you are
repairing. Of course, you'll need to go thru the "ID's" re-programming
phase too.
At the end, opening a old EIB module and looking inside for a small
piece of metal making a short-circuit is easy but really repairing the
module by replacing some parts of the bus interface is probably not
financially interesting (although replacing a broke relay or burned
triac inside definitely is ...)
Have fun ;-)
Keldo.
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - Goahead - 28/11/2007
Hi Keldo
Thank you for ideas and lots of info.
A started with the dimmer module jung 3602 instead of the shorted
module TS223, cause it seemed more chalenging and at present time,and
i cant remove the TS223 from board yet.
Dimmer module is not short circuited but does nothing when program
button clicked..
Inside The Jung 3602 i have 2 PCBs:
- Bus control + Dimmer controler
- Power zone for dimmer (mosfet or triacs!!)
Its a Insta 299 016 07 Module from Insta Company (didnt know that jung
really doesnt do anything!!)
Bus control is made with transformer + FZE1065EG (Infineon) +
68HC705B16N (Motorola)
I found out that one diode was dead...so maybe someone connected the
bus wrong way and kill the chip.
So after removing some components i concluded that i have 7,2Ohms
(like a short) bettwen pins 4 and ground of the FZE....
Theres no voltage output in pins 1,4,8 and 9.. so thats why the rest
of the circuit is dead.
I have tested the microprocessor with 5V in VDD and enabled the reset
and Save pins, and it seems to be ok, since i press the reset button
and the led goes ON.
In conclusion...FZE1065EG and one diode are dead...everything else OK.
Now...opternus sells the chip (if its not obsulete) but it also comes
with transformer...7,5Euros + shipping.
I have some spare modules (other brands) but i dont want to remove the
FZE from them, cause they work ok.
Any other locations for buying in europe would be greatfull.
Thank you all for all the help
Ill keep you all informed when i fix at put the module together (get
the FZE and solder it), and ill keep people informed with progress
with the shorted one TS223.
If you have any dead module that you want to fix..i will be glad to
help.
regards from Portugal
Goahead
TS 223 Never used..and already dead! - keldo - 28/11/2007
> Its a Insta 299 016 07 Module from Insta Company (didnt know that jung
> really doesnt do anything!!)
This happens A LOT in EIB/KNX hardware, companies are buying and
selling OEM modules to each others to be able to sell a full range of
EIB products under their brand while keeping developements costs
lower ...
At the beginning, Siemens and ABB made a lot of modules for other
companies.
> In conclusion...FZE1065EG and one diode are dead...everything else OK.
That's nice, no need to reprogram the µC.
> Now...opternus sells the chip (if its not obsulete) but it also comes
> with transformer...7,5Euros + shipping.
> I have some spare modules (other brands) but i dont want to remove the
> FZE from them, cause they work ok.
> Any other locations for buying in europe would be greatfull.
I'm afraid there is no other seller for small quantities. Maybe you
can try to buy directly from Siemens but they will probably propose
you a price for a complete reel ...
You'll probably find more information on german forums.
> If you have any dead module that you want to fix..i will be glad to
> help.
Not at the moment but thank you.