24/08/2007, 23:30:37
On 21 août, 20:31, Goahead <etc...@ua.pt> wrote:
> But...imagine that i press a button to make "all off" at my house...
> All lights goes off, closes the water and gas, and sends command to
> garage door...
> now if i have the garage door closed it will open and vice-versa,
> cause we cant use the option up/stop/down/stop
> It must be separeted commands (2 binario exits).. up/stop and another
> to down/stop
Hello.
As far as I know, this would make no problem for a normal 230V blind/
roller actuator.
The actuator has two 230V outputs per channel, one to go up and the
other one to go down, so it is easy to connect on the engine of the
door.
The EIB bus side, if you configure your actuator in "roller" mode,
you'll have two communication objects avaliable on the bus :
1) Up/Down (1 bit object)
2) Stop/Step (1 bit object)
In the configuration page of your actuator (in ETS) you will find a
few settings, the most interesting ones are "time to go up" and "time
to go down", but depending the actuator type, you'll have a lot more
settings (look at the documentation of a Siemens N 523/02 for
exemple).
How does this work ?
When the communication object "Up/Down" recieves a telegram "1" from
the bus, the actuator will apply 230V on the "go up" output for the
number of seconds you put as parameter "time to go up", then the 230V
will be dropped. There must NOT be any other telegram on the bus to
stop the action, so it is not like an actuator for a light which stays
on until a "0" telegram is recieved from the bus, and that makes it a
little bit confusing when you work with blind/roller actuators for the
first time.
To let your door (or blind, roller, ...) go down, it is exactly the
same as above but a "0" telegram is sent to the "Up/Down"
communication object. Again, it is the internal timer of the actuator
that will stop the 230V, NOT any other telegram.
If you configure your actuator for a "roller", which is probably the
right mode for a garage door, the second object, "Stop/Step" does only
one thing : If the 230V is currently applied on one of the two output
of this channel, any telegram recieved (so either a "0" or a "1") for
this object will stop the 230V immediatetly (so it will shorten the
timer).
The "time to go up" and "time to go down" values that you will put in
ETS must be slightly higher that the times required by you door to
move completely from closed to fully open (and the way back for the
2nd value of course), so that means you'll have to connect an operate
your door "manually" with a classic switch and measure the times
before you can actually connect your door on the EIB actuator.
This also means that (after the connection on the EIB actuator), once
your door will be fully closed or fully open, the door engine will
still be powered on the 230V for a few seconds ; so it must have some
sort of internal protection (=interrupteur "fin de course") to avoid
beeing damaged, or you'll have to add sensors near the "fully open"
and "fully closed" positions to send a "Stop" telegram for the
actuator at just the right time/position.
I hope you now see that integrating your garage door into an "All Off"
scenario is a piece of cake, as you just have to send a "0" telegram
to your actuator : the door will close if it was open, even partially
open, and if it was already closed it will stay so.
But note that in the later case, the actuator will still send 230V on
the "down" output for some seconds (the preset time for "going down")
and in this case it could be very bad for the door engine if it has no
internal protection as the sensor trick will not work :
--> the door was already closed so the sensor already sent its
telegram a long time ago and it will not send a new "stop" telegram,
so this situation must be prevented with a few bolean logic gates
between the last sensor telegrams and the "up/down" telegrams.
If you want a trustable feedback of the actual position of your door,
you'll sensors also, because the "up/down" telegram only tells you
what was the last direction requested, but not if the door actually
moved.
The problem is the same with rollers and is particularly true in the
closing direction :
--> On one day, you always end up with "something" (= a box, a
bicycle, a car, ...) just right in the way of garage door moving down.
If nobody sees it and the engine as no way to know someting is
blocking the door, it will probably try hard to push the door further
that it actually can and this could damage the entire door (and the
car behind it by the way ...).
So I would suggest you to pay some special attention to protection
accessories like a sensor located inside the lower rubber edge of the
door (that could stop it when something is blocking) BEFORE you order
the door.
For poeple like Mark who don't want to fully open the door at all
time, some "smarter" actuators like the Siemens N 523/02 have extra
settings and communication objects avaliable to memorise "middle"
positions and/or to recieve orders like "open the door at 75%". It may
not be very acurate (it is based on the number of seconds the engine
is running, not n a sensor feedback) but is still remains very handy.
> But...imagine that i press a button to make "all off" at my house...
> All lights goes off, closes the water and gas, and sends command to
> garage door...
> now if i have the garage door closed it will open and vice-versa,
> cause we cant use the option up/stop/down/stop
> It must be separeted commands (2 binario exits).. up/stop and another
> to down/stop
Hello.
As far as I know, this would make no problem for a normal 230V blind/
roller actuator.
The actuator has two 230V outputs per channel, one to go up and the
other one to go down, so it is easy to connect on the engine of the
door.
The EIB bus side, if you configure your actuator in "roller" mode,
you'll have two communication objects avaliable on the bus :
1) Up/Down (1 bit object)
2) Stop/Step (1 bit object)
In the configuration page of your actuator (in ETS) you will find a
few settings, the most interesting ones are "time to go up" and "time
to go down", but depending the actuator type, you'll have a lot more
settings (look at the documentation of a Siemens N 523/02 for
exemple).
How does this work ?
When the communication object "Up/Down" recieves a telegram "1" from
the bus, the actuator will apply 230V on the "go up" output for the
number of seconds you put as parameter "time to go up", then the 230V
will be dropped. There must NOT be any other telegram on the bus to
stop the action, so it is not like an actuator for a light which stays
on until a "0" telegram is recieved from the bus, and that makes it a
little bit confusing when you work with blind/roller actuators for the
first time.
To let your door (or blind, roller, ...) go down, it is exactly the
same as above but a "0" telegram is sent to the "Up/Down"
communication object. Again, it is the internal timer of the actuator
that will stop the 230V, NOT any other telegram.
If you configure your actuator for a "roller", which is probably the
right mode for a garage door, the second object, "Stop/Step" does only
one thing : If the 230V is currently applied on one of the two output
of this channel, any telegram recieved (so either a "0" or a "1") for
this object will stop the 230V immediatetly (so it will shorten the
timer).
The "time to go up" and "time to go down" values that you will put in
ETS must be slightly higher that the times required by you door to
move completely from closed to fully open (and the way back for the
2nd value of course), so that means you'll have to connect an operate
your door "manually" with a classic switch and measure the times
before you can actually connect your door on the EIB actuator.
This also means that (after the connection on the EIB actuator), once
your door will be fully closed or fully open, the door engine will
still be powered on the 230V for a few seconds ; so it must have some
sort of internal protection (=interrupteur "fin de course") to avoid
beeing damaged, or you'll have to add sensors near the "fully open"
and "fully closed" positions to send a "Stop" telegram for the
actuator at just the right time/position.
I hope you now see that integrating your garage door into an "All Off"
scenario is a piece of cake, as you just have to send a "0" telegram
to your actuator : the door will close if it was open, even partially
open, and if it was already closed it will stay so.
But note that in the later case, the actuator will still send 230V on
the "down" output for some seconds (the preset time for "going down")
and in this case it could be very bad for the door engine if it has no
internal protection as the sensor trick will not work :
--> the door was already closed so the sensor already sent its
telegram a long time ago and it will not send a new "stop" telegram,
so this situation must be prevented with a few bolean logic gates
between the last sensor telegrams and the "up/down" telegrams.
If you want a trustable feedback of the actual position of your door,
you'll sensors also, because the "up/down" telegram only tells you
what was the last direction requested, but not if the door actually
moved.
The problem is the same with rollers and is particularly true in the
closing direction :
--> On one day, you always end up with "something" (= a box, a
bicycle, a car, ...) just right in the way of garage door moving down.
If nobody sees it and the engine as no way to know someting is
blocking the door, it will probably try hard to push the door further
that it actually can and this could damage the entire door (and the
car behind it by the way ...).
So I would suggest you to pay some special attention to protection
accessories like a sensor located inside the lower rubber edge of the
door (that could stop it when something is blocking) BEFORE you order
the door.
For poeple like Mark who don't want to fully open the door at all
time, some "smarter" actuators like the Siemens N 523/02 have extra
settings and communication objects avaliable to memorise "middle"
positions and/or to recieve orders like "open the door at 75%". It may
not be very acurate (it is based on the number of seconds the engine
is running, not n a sensor feedback) but is still remains very handy.